From: Dianne Morley
To: Moonstone Labradors
Sent: Mon, Jun 7, 2010
Sarita,
My Magic/Ham pup, Pre was diagnosed with Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy about 10 days ago. It's a painful inflammatory swelling of the growth plates of the joints of the leg bones and thoracic vertebrae/rib articulations and associated with a high fever. Pre's highest temperature was 104.8. Cause is unknown. According to the literature, HOD is a disease of young, rapidly growing dogs striking pups between the ages of 3 and 6 months. Pre is small for his age and not rapidly growing. I made the comment to Alex in mid May that I thought Pre was losing muscle mass in his rear limbs. In retrospect, his joints were enlarging. Pre seemed to suddenly develop pain and lameness over Memorial Day weekend. We went through a four day period of vet visits and IVs before diagnosis was confirmed by x-ray. I will mail you a copy of Pre's x-rays.
Recommended treatment is basically supportive to decrease pain and prevent joint contractures which could lead to deformities. Pre is too young for steroids. I'm treating him with hot/cold packs, laser, gentle joint mobilizations, and passive range of motion. From what I've read, Pre's pain will decrease significantly after his growth plates close. I'm also starting some holistic alternative medicine.
Alex and I love this pup. Pre is smart and seems to understand everything I throw at him although our training has been minimal.....hand thrown bumpers, lots of socialization, and basic obedience.....My Mother was here for a month, had two litters of pups, PT job, and my part-time kennel help quit. These are two youtube videos. One was taken outside our barn. The other was shot four days later in my home office. As you will be able to tell from the videos, unless a miracle occurs, Pre will never be a competition dog.
Dianne
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX9h8khMAOQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e1z-ftj4tw
From: Moonstone Labradors
To: Dianne Morley
Sent: Tue, Jun 8, 2010
Dianne,
I am VERY sad to hear about Pre's condition. I was not familiar with HOD -- have just done some brief reading on it so my knowledge is still very limited. There were suggestions of a connection with "live" vaccines and increased calcium levels but I'm sure that wouldn't apply with your situation as I know how precise you are with your dogs and their nutrition and care.
HaM finished her CFC last weekend - she only needed 2 points and well completed her field champion title with an Open win and an Open second. Emmitt got an Open 3rd and Livvy got an Open RJ.
We'll probably breed Livvy next year and are thinking about FC Finn .... http://www.lonewillowkennel.com/index.php?p=1_14_At-Stud... should you not get that miracle we're all hoping for with Pre and although I do not see any indications or suggestion that HOD is genetic or hereditary, we'll be glad to give you one of Livvy's little miracles. Or one out of the Fall breeding between FC-AFC-CFC-CAFC Ninja X Molly ***(HaM's full sister and Emmitt's mom)...
Sarita
From: Moonstone Labradors
To: Dianne Morley
Sent: Wed, Jun 9, 2010
Dianne,
I emailed Dr. Aul about Pre's diagnosis...Dr. Aul said to be very careful as HOD is misdiagnosed quite often...
Hope Pre is doing better and praying that this passes quickly...
Sarita
Sarita McKnight
MOONSTONE LABRADORS
Bigfork MT 59911
(406) 257 – 7311
From: Dianne Morley
To: Moonstone Labradors
Sent: Tue, Jun 15, 2010
Sarita,
Wow!!! Congratulations on your success with HaM, Livvy, and Emmitt.
Pre's HOD came as a shock to me. I'd never heard of the condition before this. Pre is doing better with western and eastern physical therapy techniques. Pre is able to stand independently with good balance. His hip extension has improved significantly. He walked from our barn, down to our pond, and back this morning with no increase in lameness. Pre is eating well and wants to play with the other dogs. Pre is lame on both front limbs L > R....mostly in the carpus joints (wrist) and secondarily in the elbows. The swelling is mainly osseous (bone), not fluid. I will not consider training Pre for HT/FT until his growth plates close.....14 to 18 months of age......as I do not want to do anything that would increase his inflammatory response. Pre is my long term project....and a very smart and wonderful dog. I will keep you updated and send another video soon.
Thank you for your offer of another pup. Please put me on your list for a Finn/Livvy pup. Even if I get that miracle with Pre, I'd like a FT pup down the road. When are you planning on breeding Livvy?
Sorry for the delay in responding. We've been swamped with guests, work, and dogs.
Di
From: Moonstone Labradors
To: Dianne Morley
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010
Hi Dianne,
Gosh can't believe autumn is already in the air here. Time's just whippin' by.
Hope Pre is doing well...continuing to improve and get stronger.
Bob Swenson, owner of Finn, is very excited about the two breedings we have planned for Finn...Molly and Livvy. Molly's will be this fall; Liv's will come sometime in 2011 - not sure which cycle.
I've got you penciled in for a male for a Livvy pup. All will be EIC/CNM clear. I'm already getting deposit checks for the Finn X Livvy breeding, so to ensure your No. 2 pick of the males you might want to consider sending a deposit which will not be cashed until 2011 and close to the breeding time, but it will give you the pick number. The No. 1 pick has been reserved for some time (and No. 1 and No.2 females have been reserved.) Deposits for this litter are $500...the base price for the pups are $2,000...and should Liv perform as we think she can/will in the fall/winter/spring, the price will go up accordingly. With VERY high hopes, should Livvy FC/AFC, the price will probably go upwards toward $4,000.
Let me know if you still have an interest in this breeding...
Sarita
From: Dianne Morley
To: Moonstone Labradors
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010
Sarita,
I am definitely interested in #2 pick male out of Finn and Livvy. I want a FT pup that will be able to spend half the year with me and the other half with a pro trainer....due to my work schedule. My goal is FC/AFC.....and compete in a National.
Pre is better than he was at 11 to 12 weeks. However, I doubt if he will ever be a "normal" dog. Pre is exhibiting hypertrophy of bone, especially in the carpus (wrists), and lameness.....which probably will progress to arthritis. He is small for his age with a decreased appetite. HOD is a painful condition. Even his jaw joints are sore. I've been feeding Pre a gluten free organic home cooked diet under veterinary supervision.....no supplements or meds. I've tried to add soaked dry large breed puppy food but it seems to increase his inflammation....probably due to the preservatives.
Pre's energy level is ~30 to 50% of a normal puppy. I am keeping his exercise below a moderate level as to not increase any inflammatory processes. Pre wades in our ponds....has not attempted to swim. I'm not going to force that issue. Pre is getting acupuncture, laser therapy, and gentle passive stretching to maintain range of motion. I couldn't ask for a nicer personality or temperament. Pre had a normal eye CERF exam. Pre's growth plates should be closed by the age of 14 months. Do you still want me to have a Penn Hip eval performed on Pre before the age of 12 months...per your guarantee?
As breeders, we try to do everything possible to produce exceptional pups. Everyone wants a "Gerber" baby. Sometimes things go wrong....acts of God. Pre is one of those dogs. He seems to have some sort of auto-immune dysfunction. We previously discussed replacing Pre with another pup. How do you want to work this? Pre is not a FT/HT candidate. I doubt if he can be sold as a possible service dog. In my opinion, Pre should just be a full time well loved housedog/pet. I could probably eventually sell Pre to someone who would want to breed him just for his pedigree. If he was from my lines, I wouldn't breed him due to his sensitivity issues. I wouldn't want to take the chance of these issues being associated with my line. I can give Pre back to you after his growth plates close. If at 14 months, we decide that Pre requires long term maintenance therapy, I would rather keep him, neuter him, and sign his AKC registration back over to you.
Should I send a deposit in case a miracle occurs with Pre? ......but the bone hypertrophy is already there...... I have no problem paying additional for Livvy's FC/AFC title.....or something extra for a new pup. I paid $3,000 for Pre.....who was normal for 2 to 3 weeks. I've since spent a small fortune on organic food and veterinary care....not to mention time.
Let me know. If you'd rather discuss things over the phone, I am off work today.
Di
From: Moonstone Labradors
To: Dianne Morley
Sent: Mon, Aug 16, 2010
Dianne,
Thanks for the email...I have found the attached article which well summarizes HOD and its various sub categories very helpful in my understanding of HOD.
No doubt, Pre has been blessed to be with you. And it sounds like he'll be able to live a happy life with you.
I've read huge amounts of literature on HOD in the past several months and spoken with many veterinarians on the subject -- I'm sorry that one of my pups contracting HOD had to precipitate the learning process. I know of no immunodeficiency disorders running within Libby's lines or any signs of immuno-suppression problems showing up in any of Libby's pups, Ham's pups, or Molly's pups. With no known cause, everything I've read suggests it's impossible to know how, where, or when Pre came to have HOD.
Although HOD along with 110+ other canine defects/diseases/conditions are not covered in our health guarantee, we try to consider the very few health-problem pups we've had in the past 20 years on an individual basis. Here's what Bill and I will agree to do...we can offer you a replacement puppy at no charge from the 2010 FC Finn X Molly (HaM's full sister) breeding. We would not require Pre's return. Even though there is a good possibility that he could make a very good service dog, we will forego this option. As you mentioned below, you would not be using Pre for breeding, so you could have him neutered when you feel it is appropriate for Pre.
The 2nd pick of the Finn X Molly males is available...
Let me know if you'd like a pup from the Finn X Molly breeding.
Sarita and Bill
From: Dianne Morley
To: Moonstone Labradors
Sent: Tue, Aug 17, 2010
Sarita and Bill,
Thanks for responding. I was unable to open the HOD attachment. In 20 years of breeding, I had never heard of HOD. It's been an education. Pre started swimming this week. We've had hot hot weather. I walk/swim Pre with our two 10 year old dogs.
Thank you for your Finn/Molly offer.....but I would rather wait and have second pick on a Finn/Livvy male pup. I want the best pup possible for FT competition and prefer a pup out of two FCs or AFCs......comperable to your Magic/HaM breeding. Molly is nice....but not FC/AFC titled. I like Magic's pedigree (FC/MH) as well as your lines. I am impressed with the longevity of your lines. I plan on breeding my pup down the road. Business wise, a pup out of two FCs or AFCs is a better investment. Stud fees help with training and competition expenses. The pup needs to be CNM/EIC Clear as well.
I'm ready for a full field line pup to compete with. Hacker is 10 and retired. Bones and Bueller are 7. Bueller is retired due to lumbar laminectomy surgery after a fall while pheasant hunting in North Dakota. I'm still training Bones myself.....but he was diagnosed with an arthritic elbow. My goal with a new pup is FC/AFC...and the opportunity to compete in a National or National Amateur. I've qualified two dogs in the Master National so am ready to step back up to competing in FTs.
Would you consider me paying $1,000 for second pick Finn/Livvy male pup.....if I neuter Pre? If heathwise, I am able to sell Pre after his growth plates close, we can renegotiate the Finn/Livvy pup purchase price. I can send a $500 deposit.
Dianne
From: Dianne Morley
To: Moonstone Labradors
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010
Sarita,
Thanks for the HOD article. I've been researching too. It's a sad process.
Have you made a decision regarding me reserving second pick Finn/Livvy male?
Di
From: Moonstone Labradors
To: Dianne Morley
Sent: Fri, Aug 20, 2010
Dianne,
Before we sent the email offering the Finn X Molly puppy, Sarita and I spent quite some time discussing what we could offer you that was fair. We offered a free replacement puppy to you for a canine health issue that is most probably not covered by any breeder's health guarantee nor... has any known cause. You had first pick of the HaMpups, and YOU chose your puppy, Pre. Your puppy was in perfect health when he left MOONSTONE. We are accepting responsibility for a situation which is not our responsibility. We offered to let you physicially keep your HaMpup Pre who seems to be returning to good health.
The health guarantee you signed for Pre states if there is a replacement puppy situation, the pup would be the Seller's choice, not the buyer's choice. Pre would need to be signed back over to us, and possibly returned to us.
What Sarita and I have offered you is extremely generous for a non-covered health guarantee issue.
The offer stands...Finn X Molly pup replacement, 2nd choice; Pre's ownership signed back over to us.
Bill
From: Dianne Morley
To: Moonstone Labradors
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010
Bill and Sarita,
Could we find a way to work this out so I can get second pick male from your planned Finn/Livvy breeding? I would like to remain friends. There should be a way that we can all be satisfied.
I spent $3,000 on a Magic/HaM pup...the most I've ever spent by far. I wanted the best pup possible for a FT prospect and a future sire for breeding. EIC Clear was mandatory according to our e-mail correspondences. Molly is a very nice dog but an EIC Carrier....so a Finn/Molly pup has a 50% chance of being a Carrier. As stated before I want a pup out of two FCs or the possibility of becoming an FC.......a replacement for my 10.5 year old yellow male, Hacker. A Finn/Livvy pup should be ideal for my needs.
Yes, Pre seemed in perfect health when he left your kennel. However, he was diagnosed with HOD three weeks after I picked him up. I did everything right....proper diet, socialization, moderate exercise, no rough playing with older dogs, etc. Pre never had a huge appetite like most pups. You may not realize it, but I have spent almost $3,000 so far for Pre's health issues.
HOD is not covered in your guarantee. As a breeder it's not about just doing what is in the contract, it's about doing the right thing. A few years ago, I sold a $1,000 puppy to a client. She called me three weeks later stating that the pup had a heart murmur. She took the pup to a cardiologist who confirmed that the pup had a defective heart which may or may not be genetic. This pup was fourth generation of my bitch line and a repeat breeding. I'd never had any problem like this. I sent her a $1,000 check for a full refund and gave her a replacement pup a year later. She wanted a pup out of the same bitch. This time I bred her to an FC-AFC sire instead of the MH sire because I didn't want to repeat the breeding with the defective heart pup. I did charge her for $500 as I was charging $1,500 for this breeding. To me, that was doing the right thing.
I didn't mean to insult you with my offer for a Finn/Livvy pup. My understanding was that you are charging $2,000 for Finn/Livvy and Finn/Molly pups. You are planning on charging more for Finn/Livvy pups if she gets an FC or AFC title. I offered $1,000 for a Finn/Livvy pup.....price of a Finn/Molly pup plus a $1,000....meeting in the middle. I am open for negotiations. Let me know what seems fair to you.
I can send Pre back to you this week if you want. However, I would like to keep him until his growth plates are closed....14 to 16 months....and then return him to you. I feel that he has the optimum chance health wise with my physical therapy expertise and access to more veterinary specialists. I can't help but fall in love with a special needs pup, however, I really do not need another dog that requires physical therapy. I already have two geriatrics over the age of 10 and two 7 year olds....one post lumbar laminectomy which surgically was a salvage procedure and the other with a non-surgical arthritic elbow problem. My long term plans are to own less dogs and concentrate on a few performance candidates. If Pre's condition requires long term care, I will keep him as yes, he is my responsibility....and we do love him.
In my opinion, Pre will never be a FT candidate. I think it would be cruel to put him with a trainer and not be able to monitor his health daily....ie- joint swelling, lameness, etc. It would also be foolish financially spend the money and time. With all that Pre has gone through in his young life, he should just be someones buddy.
Let me know what it will take to work things out so I can get second pick Finn/Livvy male pup.
Dianne
From: Moonstone Labradors
To: Dianne Morley
Sent: Sun, Aug 22, 2010
Hello Diane.
Thank you for the attached email. You obviously put a lot of time and thought into it.
If I understand you correctly your main concern is that you do not believe that Pre has what it will take to be a field champion/stud dog. From my perspective it is much to early to make that determination As you know breeders do not make guarantees on such matters. While I am not an expert on HOD I believe the chances of Pre making a full recovery are excellent.
Yes, you paid a great deal of money for Pre. In return you received a puppy from one the best genetic yellow lines in the sport. We did all that we knew how to to insure you received a healthy puppy. I am satisfied that we did so.
I have spent the morning considering how to best respond to you with out causing further inflammation to the situation. I am not sure I have the mastery of the language to do so other than to say don't give up on Pre so soon. I know the strength of his ancestors. You have, in Pre, an exceptional dog that may yet help you realize your dreams.
I am sorry but our offer stands.
Bill
From: Dianne Morley
To: Moonstone Labradors
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010
Bill,
I'm sorry but I just don't get your reasoning. Why can't I take the money you are asking for a Finn/Molly pup and put it toward the purchase of second pick yellow male from your planned Finn/Livvy breeding and pay you for the remaining balance due? Money-wise, you will get the same amount. Was I correct in the asking price being the same for both litters? Or is there something I am unaware of that you have against me? I'm trying to look at this whole process in a logical manner but it's confusing.
I will be driving to North Dakota in October to visit my Mother and can give Pre back to you then if you wish....or I can keep him until his growth plates are closed and then return him to you....or neuter and keep him and sign his AKC registration back to you.
My dream when I first started corresponding with you and Sarita was to get the best possible genetics/pedigree (out of 2 FCs or the possibility of getting a FC or AFC title), potential stud dog, EIC Clear, field trial prospect male pup. You stated in your last e-mail that in your opinion I am giving up on Pre too soon and still have the potential to fullfill my dream. Bill, in my opinion, it would not be ethical to breed this pup even if he "recovers." I wouldn't want to take the chance of Pre producing bone growth problems in his offspring. It would be severely detrimental to both of our kennel reputations. As far as I can tell in the literature, the theory is that HOD is not a genetic problem and the cause is unknown. However, I cannot find any articles on HOD dogs being bred. I just don't want to take the chance.
As stated before, I want to concentrate on one excellent field trial pup. Lance is 4. MH title is my optimum goal with him. My other competition dogs are 7 and 8 with QAA and MH titles.
Hopefully, we can all resolve this and be satisfied.
Dianne
From: Moonstone Labradors
To: Dianne Morley
Sent: Thu, Aug 26, 2010
Dianne,
We have nothing but the highest regard and respect for you...truly.
Several weeks ago unrelated to what is going on between us, Bill and I decided to not accept any deposits or reserve any puppies that will be coming from the 2011 Finn X Livvy breeding with the exception of the breeder and the stud owner...and probably will not until next spring.
Regarding Pre...this is not and never has been a health guarantee issue...HOD is not believed to be a genetic issue, as you said. And Dr. Aul backs that up totally. MOONSTONE's health guarantee addresses CHD and genetic eye disorders. There is no provision for HOD or Acts of God. This is not a guarantee issue; this is an Act of God issue, not unlike a puppy being stuck by lightning, hit by a car, washed away in a flash flood...very sad but out of our control.
Occasionally an issue with a puppy will arise... such as a EIC affected pup from a breeding which took place prior to the EIC test being available...we offered a replacement pup in this particular instance, which was happily accepted. We address these infrequent issues on a case-by-case basis...such as we have done with Pre.
Over the past couple of months I've spoken with many breeders, veterinarians about this situation generically....we feel comfortable that the efforts we have made to assuage the predicament are well beyond the call of duty/responsibility.
Bill and I have made an extremely generous offer of an exceptional replacement puppy. We have offered you to keep Pre. Or take Pre back...if you like.
Since our offer has not been acceptable to you, we respectfully withdraw any offer we have made up to this date.
We pray and hope that Pre will continue to improve.
Sarita